October 25, 2015

Katoog vs. the Gospel, pt. 3

Posted in biblesupport.com tagged , , , at 11:40 AM by chriswadams

Katoog, I again have set your words in red for easier readability.

I wrote:

When God regenerates and converts a sinner, indwelling sin is not totally removed from a believer. A believer continues to sin against God all the days of his life,

And you wrote:

I have no opinion about this but I wonder about the born-again and/or born of God doctrine.
Who is born again and/or born to God and went?

Well, you could start with the verses you erased. Here they are:

1Ki 8:46; Psa 32:5; 37:24; 38:18; 41:4; 69:5; 130:3; Rom 7:14-25; Jam 5:16; 1Jo 1:8-10

You wrote:

1Jn 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin; for His seed remains in him:
and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

First the easy questions
Rom 5:8 But God commends his love towards us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

I wrote:

This is a great verse, because it totally smashes universal atonement. Tell me Katoog, how did God love his people BEFORE they made a “decision” to believe?

You wrote:

Because God can manipulate time.
2Ki 20:9 Isaiah said, This sign shall Thou have of the LORD, that the LORD will do the thing that He has spoken: shall the shadow go forward ten degrees, or go back ten degrees?
2Ki 20:10 Hizkiah answered, It is a light thing for the shadow to go forward ten degrees: no, but let the shadow return backward ten degrees.
2Ki 20:11 Isaiah the prophet cried to the LORD: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down on the dial of Ahaz.

OK, so if I understand what you’re saying, God sees a person using his free-will to repent and believe the Gospel, and says to himself “Oops! I didn’t foresee THAT happening! I might as well go back in time and predestinate that person to believe the Gospel, since I didn’t do it back then.” If that’s not what you’re saying, then what did you mean by “God can manipulate time”? But if that IS what you mean, then you have completely obliterated the very concept of foreknowledge. If God foreknows everything, why would he have to manipulate time for any reason?

The apostle James refuted your false view of predestination when he said:

Acts 15: (18) All His works are known to God from eternity.

THAT is what foreknowledge is, and THAT is what predestination is: God planning all his works from before time began, and INFALLIBLY carrying them out in time, to eternity future. Your god is as fallible as you are, unable to foresee everything that happens, and certainly not in control of it.

I wrote:

Much more then, being justified now by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. (Rom 5:9, LITV)

And you responded:

“shall be” is future tense

Ummm ………….. yes. But what difference does that make? The point is that those who are NOW justified by the blood WILL be saved from wrath. Yet you believe that millions of people are justified who will NOT be saved from wrath. Your theology is the polar opposite of Paul’s theology.

You wrote:

Mat 18:11 For the Son of Man is come to save that which having been lost.
“having been lost” second peRfect Participle

Again, so what? The point is that the Jesus of the Bible came to save that which is lost, but your jesus FAILS to save millions of lost people that he wanted to save. You’re straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel here.

I wrote:

It would help if you used a more accurate translation. Here is how some of the others translate this verse:
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, (KJV)
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people, (ASV)
For the saving grace of God has appeared to all men, (LITV)
For the saving grace of God was manifested to all men, (YLT)

You responded:

The TRi argree with the RHB 3.6 (saving  and brings Salvation are G4992) ἡ is the  or that or which or nothing before brings Salvation

Titus 2:11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, (KJV)

Titus 2:11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people, (ASV)

Titus 2:11 For the saving grace of God has appeared to all men,(LITV)

Titus 2:11 For the saving grace of God was manifested to all men, (YLT)
Titus 2:11 For it has appeared that the grace of God brings Salvation to all men. (RHB 3.6)

Titus 2:11 Ἐπεφάνη G2014 V-2API-3S  γὰρ For Appeared G1063 CONJ  ἡ The G3588 T-NSF  χάρις Grace G5485 N-NSF  τοῦ G3588 T-GSM  θεοῦ Of God G2316 N-GSM  ἡ Which G3588 T-NSF  σωτήριος Brings Salvation G4992 A-NSM  πᾶσιν For All G3956 A-DPM  ἀνθρώποις Men, G444 N-DPM (TRi)

If Paul was saying that the grace of God brings salvation to all men without exception, then God failed miserably, just like you were hoping.

I wrote:

Really, Katoog? Are you saying that God predestined Judas for Hell?

And you responded:

Or the Beast with the false Prophet in Rev 19:20. (this is for the future).

So what does that have to do with Judas being predestined for Hell?

I wrote:

But wait, Katoog! If ἐκλεκτός is a choosing, then in what way is the choosing of God different from the calling of God? According to your view, God is calling and choosing everyone, right? How is it that FEW are chosen?

You wrote:

ἐκλεκτός= elect or chosen (in the KJV)

κλητός= called (in the KJV)

I think that the elect are about a small group of Saints elected by God or people who working together with the Saints and become Saints.(especially in the End-time) many are called but don’t listen to God.

Which is it Katoog? Are they chosen, or did they listen? Think carefully before you answer, because you already know what Scripture says. It says “Many are called but few are chosen” while you say “Many are called but few listen to God”. (And if you reply that they are chosen because they listen then why doesn’t the verse say that? Why does it only say they are “chosen”?)

I wrote:

You believe that he shed his blood for ALL without exception.

You responded:

I read also “New Covenant” and this is about Christians.(many)

Well, Christians are under the New Covenant; do you not believe that?

I wrote:

But Katoog, what if the person who blasphemes the Holy Spirit uses his Free-will decision-making power to sincerely seek forgiveness? Will God refuse to forgive him? Does your theology even ALLOW God to refuse to forgive someone?

And you responded:

Yes my theology even ALLOW God to refuse to forgive someone (people who refuse to repent and unforgiving people)

But that’s not the scenario at all. You’re changing the subject again. (That’s a lot easier than just answering the question, isn’t it?) The scenario is: what about someone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit, then wants to repent and believe the Gospel. Is God allowed to refuse to forgive that person?

I asked:

Why will ANY be refused entrance when they are “seek[ing] to enter in”?

You wrote:

Because they are stupid or unwilling to accept Grace or lacks endurance?

Are you really that blind? I CLEARLY asked you about someone who was “seek[ing] to enter in”, NOT someone unwilling.

But I understand, Katoog. Really. You actually CANNOT answer that question honestly, because it would unmask your false gospel. You HAVE to change the subject. You don’t have any other choice. You simply can’t give the honest answer, which is that in your theology, God is absolutely NOT allowed to refuse to forgive someone who is “seek[ing] to enter in”, even though Scripture plainly says he will. In your theology, God MUST bow before his majesty, Free Will Almighty. Man has all the sovereignty, and God must meekly follow along. True, your theology turns Scripture on its head, but obviously that’s a consequence you’re willing to live with. You are lost, and your deeds are evil, Katoog. Repent and believe the Gospel.

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