October 18, 2015

Katoog vs. the Gospel, pt. 2

Posted in biblesupport.com tagged , , at 12:22 PM by chriswadams

Katoog –

Again, I will put your words in red for readability. You wrote:

chriswadams, on 28 May 2015 – 03:35 AM, said:

The true heart of the Gospel is the person and work of Christ. The fact that you have replaced the person and work of Christ with the work of Man is very telling.

If the TULIP that denies every trace of free-will is correct and the effort of the sinner to repent is useless if they are not selected: how can you be sure that you are counted by the Saints (Do you keep the commandments?)

I wrote:

If by “counted by the Saints” you mean “one of the elect”, then the answer is that an unregenerate person has no assurance that they are among the elect unless and until they believe the Gospel. Only the elect will be regenerated and caused to believe the Gospel (Pro 16:4, Eze 36:26-27, Joh 6:37, 39, 44, Joh 10:27). If an advocate of Predestination preached that people needed to know whether they are elect before they could believe the Gospel, he would be telling them to rely on the work of God the Father in salvation. Instead, they need to rely on the work of God the Son.
Keeping the commandments of God offers NO assurance of salvation (Mat 7:22-23, Luk 18:11-12, Rom 10:2-3, 1Co 11:13-15).

The true heart of the Gospel is the person and work of Christ. The fact that you have replaced the person and work of Christ with the work of Man is very telling.

You wrote:

That is the another symptom of fatalism: thinking that the work of Christ is already done and that you not longer need to “feed My sheep”.

My words were not about the necessity of keeping God’s commands, but about whether keeping the commands gives one assurance of salvation. You’re simply changing the subject.

Christians are called to keep the commandments of God (Jos 23:6, Mat 5:48, Joh 14:15, 21). But, as I wrote before, keeping the commandments of God offers NO assurance of salvation (Mat 7:22-23, Luk 18:11-12, Rom 10:2-3, 2Co 11:13-15). [Note: about the last set of verses referenced here, see below.]

I find it interesting that you have raised the exact same argument against me that was raised against Paul the apostle:

Rom 2: (7) For if in my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I yet judged as a sinner? (8) And not (as we are wrongly accused, and as some report us to say), Let us do bad things so that good things may come, the judgment of whom is just.

And how does Paul answer this charge? Does he resort to your argument, that keeping God’s commandments is required because it gives us assurance of salvation?

NO:

Rom 6: (1) What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? (2) Let it not be! We who died to sin, how shall we still live in it? (3) Or are you ignorant that all who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? (4) Therefore, we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, so also we should walk in newness of life.

Instead, Paul relies completely on the work of Christ as the only ground of his acceptance with God, and the only thing that gave him assurance of salvation and acceptance with God.

You wrote:

If you refuse to keep the Commandments then shall you NOT be counted by the Saints and be called a liar and have you the chance to be counted by the workers of lawlessness!

Nothing of what I said implied that I refuse to keep the Commandments. I continue to (imperfectly) keep God’s commandments, but out of love and thankfulness to him, not in order to gain or maintain my salvation (1Sa 15:22, Joh 14:15, 1Co 6:20, Heb 12:28). My argument ONLY had reference to keeping the commandments as the ASSURANCE of one’s acceptance with God.

You wrote:

Joh 14:15 If ye love Me, keep My Commandments.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the Saints: here are they that keeping the Commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

1Jn 2:3 And by this we do know that we have known Him, if we keep His Commandments.

1Jn 2:4 He that saying, I have known Him, and keeping not His Commandments, is a liar, and the Truth is not in him.

Mat 19:17 And He said to him, Why call Thou Me good?
None is good, except One, that is, God.
But if Thou will enter into life, keep the Commandments. Exo 20:3-17 Deu 5:7-21 .
I say again that “Keeping the commandments of God offers NO assurance of salvation (Mat 7:22-23, Luk 18:11-12, Rom 10:2-3, 1Co 11:13-15).

None of the verses above deals with assurance, only with the need to obey God’s commandments. It’s very like you to see a commandment of God, and assume that just because there is a commandment, therefore keeping it will give you assurance.

As a side note, does anyone else here see how BLATANTLY Katoog is basing his salvation on his works? Do the rest of you agree with this works-based “gospel”?

And none of the links proves your statement:
workers of lawlessness are against the Commandments.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord,
have we not prophesied in Thy Name?
And in Thy Name have cast out demons?
And in Thy Name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess to them,
I never knew you. Depart from Me, all ye workers of lawlessness. Psa 6:8 .

Well, finally, Katoog! You’re addressing some of the Scripture references I provided! Thank-you. Now, let’s see how well you do …

If “workers of lawlessness are against the Commandments” then why did they KEEP the commandments? These people weren’t heathen idolaters, they were professing Christians – they called Jesus “Lord”. Isn’t it God’s command that we call him Lord? (Rom 10:9) They did “many wonderful works” in his name. Isn’t it God’s command that we do good works in his name? (Mat 5:16, Titus 3:8)

And yet Jesus said “I NEVER KNEW YOU.” Not: “I used to know you but now I don’t” But: “I NEVER KNEW YOU.” How can this be, Katoog? How could Jesus not “know” someone who is doing good works? Doesn’t that alone give him assurance of salvation? Was Jesus wrong?

You wrote:

The publican prayed for forgiveness while the Pharisee looked to the sins of others in order to get self-justification and did never pray for forgiveness.

WRONG. The Pharisee looked to HIS WORKS for justification:

“I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.” (v. 12)

Just like you, the Pharisee got assurance of his salvation from his obedience to God’s commands.

Luk 18:9 [Parable of the Pharisee and the publican].
And He spoke this parable to certain who have been trusting in themselves that they are righteous, and despised others:
Luk 18:10 two men went up into the Temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luk 18:11 The Pharisee having stood and prayed thus with himself,
God, I thank Thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as the eyes to Heaven,
but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me the sinner.
Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other:
for every one that exalting himself shall be abased; but he that humbling himself shall be exalted.

Again self-justification (this is not the same as keeping the Commandments).

Seriously? How else would one justify himself, if not through keeping the Commandments? Murderers don’t think that they are justified because they committed murder. They think they are justified because they did some good work that makes up for the murder.

And here is that works-based “gospel” again. Katoog is blatantly aiming for “self-justification”. Do the rest of you see this? What do you think of it?

You wrote:

Rom 10:1
Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they may be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them testimony that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they, being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness,
have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to every who is believing

And this proves what I just wrote. The Jews didn’t think they were saved because the gentiles were lost; they thought they were saved because of their “zeal of God”. Yet they were actually LOST because their zeal was “not according to knowledge” – the knowledge of the Gospel. And because they didn’t believe the Gospel, they were automatically “seeking to establish their own righteousness” – a righteousness based on WORKS, in total opposition to “the righteousness of God”.

You wrote:

This is the worst example of your links: confusing a custom (hair covering) with the Commandments.

1Co 11:15 But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
1Co 11:16 But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the Churches of God.

Yeah, that was a mistake on my part. The reference actually should have been to Second Corinthians 11:13-15:

(13) For such ones are false apostles, deceitful workers transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. (14) Did not Satan marvelously transform himself into an angel of light? (15) It is not a great thing, then, if also his ministers transform themselves as ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

The point here should be obvious: the “ministers of righteousness” were actually “ministers” of Satan. But they wouldn’t have looked like “ministers of righteousness” unless they were doing good works. According to you, that should have given them assurance of their acceptance with God. Yet in reality, they were ministers of Satan.

And therefore, Katoog, so are you. You have an idol in your heart called “good works”, and when I dared to touch it you finally managed rouse yourself enough to respond to the verses I put forth. You call Jesus “Lord”, but he will turn you away if you die believing your false gospel of works and “self-justification”. You are as lost as the Pharisee who based his assurance on his good works. You have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. You are a minister of Satan, transforming himself into a minister of righteousness. You are as lost as the most perverted sodomite that ever lived. And the worst of it is that you are blithely going your way, thinking all is right between you and God. But it’s not, and never will be, so long as you base your assurance on your good works. Katoog, I implore you to repent and believe the Gospel. If you do, you will, like the Pharisee called Saul of Tarsus, cast away your good works as “loss” and “trash”, and rely exclusively on the work of Jesus Christ as the ONLY ground of acceptance with God. I pray it will be so.

Php 3: (4) Though I also might have trust in flesh; if any other thinks to trust in flesh, I more; (5) in circumcision, the eighth day, of the race of Israel, the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; according to Law, a Pharisee; (6) according to zeal, persecuting the church; according to righteousness in Law, being blameless. (7) But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss because of Christ. (8) But, nay, rather I also count all things to be loss because of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them to be trash, that I might gain Christ

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